One thing that really, really struck me when I was reading the bible is just how ridiculous the plot is. And I have to admit that at the time, I didn’t have the ability to explain just how ridiculous it was. I’m not a professional author, storyteller, or screen wright, so I really didn’t have the vocabulary or concept of what made a story suck, or what made it good. I knew from reading old Norse and other mythologies that there was some oddness to the writing style, and that the Old Testament felt exactly like those old Norse mythologies. But I still just couldn’t explain it.
But then, about 8 years ago, I was introduced to a series of videos on YouTube, including this really good Star Wars Episode I review, by a crew called “Red Letter Media.” They also do other movies, but you’ll get the point. The humor is a bit crass, but their analysis is quite professionally knowledgeable and very detailed. So I’m going to do my best to explain why the writing of the bible gives it away as a fake history. And as a warning, I’m using Star Wars references to make my point here.
What I learned is that when you’re watching a movie and get that weird feeling, like you’re confused but you aren’t sure why because you’re still following the movie plot, it’s because the story teller has screwed up and violated reality. Even if that reality is a science fictional reality, if it isn’t consistent with itself you end up feeling screwed up and confused. And if it is supposed to be real reality, then your brain really gets confused. Without having to consciously consider the thoughts and actions and “who knows what” of each character, your brain can recognize when someone does something that is inconsistent with their point of view, or reality in general.
In the Star Wars prequels, it is clear that the characters were all acting as if they already knew what happens next. This is contrived history, written long after the latter story was already known. And while good storytellers can pull this off, poor storytellers leave plot holes and unreasonable character actions as a calling card of their made up history.
The original Star Wars trilogy had been around for about 20 years by the time Episode 1 came out, and basically everyone on the planet already knew the story. We knew about the adventures of Luke, Han, Leia, and Darth. But here is the problem. When you watch Episode I you are at least subconsciously aware that THEY aren’t supposed to know about Luke, Han, Leia, and Darth. And yet, those characters tend to do things that really make no sense whatsoever, unless of course they somehow know that they’re supposed to lead to Episode IV.
Why did they go out of their way to find Anakin, and get him in a race? Why do they bring this pre-teen child to a battle? Why did Anakin make a protocol droid, if the droid was intended to help his mom with household chores? What was the purpose of the invasion? Sure, WE all know that the clone wars need to happen sooner or later, and WE all know that Anakin becomes Darth. But THEY aren’t supposed to know that. Yet their actions only make sense if they are working toward that, like it’s a goal. And therefore, the movie makes you uncomfortable and confused. Which makes you hate the movie.
Real life characters don’t just do things to move the plot along.
The Jedi are supposed to warn the Nabo people, but instead they follow a water bunny around and tell all the entire water bunny town their entire plan. Palpatine (the bad guy) wants to trick people with a made up crisis in order to justify removing the senate leadership so he can take over, but then he tries to bury the communication of the crisis.
It makes no damned sense. People doing absolute ridiculous stuff, contrary to their own goals, makes you hate the movie. And it is what happens when bad storytellers make up characters.
And if doing stuff as if you know what happens in the future is bad enough, nothing screams made up crap and poor story writing than an earlier history that contradicts the later story. Anakin supposedly makes C3PO, but his “homemade” model is exactly like every other mass-produced robot 30 years later. Anakin and Obi Wan are constantly at each other’s throat in the prequels, with Obi Wan acting like a pissed off tyrannical coach, and Anakin always the scolded, brat apprentice. Yet in the original series, Obi Wan leans back, smiles, cocks his head in warm memory, and comments that Anakin was a “good friend.” And why were the little Jedi’s in some weird indoctrination camp doing an exercise that Obi Wan would make up 20 years later on the fly?
And this is why the bible is such a crappy book. Seriously, just read it. You’ll scratch your head and get that weird look on your face if you do. And the reason is a forced, awkward, contrived plot lines.
I’ve previously written about Jephthah, which is just a comedy of stupid plot line writing. The leaders of the city, faced with a war, go find their deadbeat, inexperienced half-brother to lead the army. Jephthah makes a stupid bet with god that could have no purpose unless you already know that his daughter has to die.
But let’s not forget, well, everything else in the bible. There has to be at least 50 times where the people get a huge bit of help from god, but then seem to forget that there is a god about 4 days later and start asking for help from a lump of metal. Put yourself in the shoes of one of those people. For example, I only see my boss about once a month. And when I have an issue that needs elevated, I don’t seek guidance from my toaster! So why would anyone, that actually witnessed a god doing great things, seek guidance from an inanimate object of their own creation after a few days? They wouldn’t. It’s contrived and stupid. It’s a poor storyteller trying to explain why a “good god” is such an asshole, and using a bad plot line to do so.
Who can forget the story of Balaam’s donkey? The donkey can see the huge warrior angel blocking the road, but Balaam can’t and beats the donkey. This happens three times in sequence, because three is a nice number and all, and we get to have that cool dialogue where the donkey talks to Balaam and asks why he’s beating him, and then Balaam’s “eyes were opened” (whatever that means), and he falls down to praise god. Awww, what a happy story and lesson for Balaam.
But what the hell? After they get stopped the first time…… that’s it. That should be the end, because Balaam couldn’t see the angel and couldn’t get past. So how did he get past the angel to meet up with the same angel for the second time, and third time? It makes no sense. It also makes no sense that Balaam responded to the donkey as if the donkey were just another dumb person. It’s a TALKING DONKEY! Balaam’s first words after the donkey spoke should have been “Holy crap, you’re a talking donkey!” And dumbest of all, the whole point of the angel blocking Balaam was to stop him from his journey. But god didn’t “open Balaam’s eyes” to see the angel the first time he was blocked. God could have sent the angel, got Balaam’s eyes open in the first place, and that would be the end of the issue. But instead, god kept Balaam “angel blind” or whatever so he would have to do it three times and beat his donkey and make the donkey talk? That’s dumb. As a literary device, it could potentially make sense. But as history, it’s stupid. It’s forced and contrived.
And if you want to find silly contrived history, ask yourself “why did Jesus go to Egypt?” Well, the bible itself says it fulfilled a prophesy. Okay, fair enough. But what prophesy, you ask? And if you ask “what prophesy”, you are well on your road to becoming an atheist, because there is no answer that isn’t stupid, contrived history.
The “prophesy” of Jesus “coming out of Egypt” isn’t prophesy at all. God already called his people out of Egypt a couple thousand years before that, and their leader was Moses. There was no prophesy of a later “coming out.” Yet based on that contrived attempt to make Jesus “fulfill a prophesy” by misquoting an earlier bible story, all sorts of stupid story lines had to be poorly invented. Supposedly, the Magi followed a huge bright “star” for half a continent but suddenly they had to stop and ask for directions. Contrived. King Herod is an old dude and finds out a baby is rumored to someday lead the people. And this threatens him how? Contrived. And of course, both the Magi and Joseph are brought up to speed on the main plot line via a magic dream. How convenient. Contrived. King Herod decides a pretty good way to make sure the baby is dead is just kill every boy under 2 years of age. Multiple issues here. First, 2 years of age disagrees with the nativity account in Luke. Contradiction. Why would a sitting ruler care about a future ruler a full generation away? Contrived. How did Herod find out the Magi discovered his intent? Contrived. And if Herod KNEW the Magi found out his intent, why would he assume the baby would still be around to kill? Contrived.
If you haven’t read the bible, or you haven’t read it lately, crack it open sometime and give it a read. Look at the story from the perspective of the supporting characters. If this were a real story, those characters would also be real and would either know or not know things, wouldn’t know the future, and would act based on their motivation and not others. This is what happens in real stories.
In fake stories, characters seem to know and forget things based on what’s best for the plot. Characters do very silly things to move the story along. Characters do what’s best for the main character, instead of their own motivation. Of course the bible is fake. It’s right there in black and white.
The Spartan Atheist
The Spartan Atheist 
I agree. I never really believed in the Bible as a single book, chapter by chapter, but more of a set of disjointed stories told by disjointed tellers. Or, er. writers. I think I always knew it wasn’t ‘real’ simply because the world doesn’t work quite that way, any way.
What always intrigued me was the Science Fiction-y way it was written. And the ‘magic’ numbers: 3, 7, 11, 12, 40. Oh they were big on 40, weren’t they. 40 days and 40 nights, (not unlike the Arabian Nights stuff); Three Wisemen, 7 dreams, Noah and the 40 days of rain, etc etc. And of course those people who lived to be well into their hundredses. Sarah, who gave birth to Isaac when she was 90, died when she was 127 years old, Jacob was 147, and Methuselah was 0ver 900. I always put that down to misreading the math.
It’s utterly disjointed if you try to hum along.
When I was a kid my mother (who read everything she got her hands on) loaned me her “Hurlbut’s Stories of the Bible”, with those awful three color illustratons. I think that was when I started to think of the bible as a collection of stories, not entirely connected to each other.
It does come across as discretionary tales, rather than a seamless narrative, doesn’t it. Frankly you can get the same sense of ‘how to behave” from Cinderella, The three Little Pigs, and Goldilocks and the 3 Bears (aha, there’s those magical threes again…)
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Lol! Yeah, it’s certainly not a very good “moral of the story” book. Just lots of weird stories indeed.
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The Book of Mormon uses this tactic as well. Books written after the movie come to mind?
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The book of Moron has the problem of not only poorly making up a history, but doing so off the top of Smith’s head in real time. You can see where he realized he forgot something and just added a bunch of “angels telling people to do stuff” to get the characters arranged like he wanted for the next bit. Its just horrible.
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I really think we all try too hard (atheists and christians alike) to make and expect a seamless narrative from a collection of stuff written from different eras, in different languages, cobbled together in others, and translated a bajillion times after that. At face value, it reads like stories collected from camp fire tales over hundreds of years, none of them an attempt to connect to the others. Moses in the Bulrushes, David and Goliath, the tower of Babel. They were probably told to illustrate an event, a phenomenon, or to try to understand the why of something.
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Well the Bible was written over thousands of years in different places, yet we’re told it all intertwines together somehow, which is the problem. If it doesn’t make sense? Ah we will find out in the afterlife. When the Bible as we know it was cobbled together, I’d like to know what criteria they used for inclusion. There’s plenty of extra-biblical stuff which wasn’t considered ‘God breathed’, and it’s insane, though not more insane than much of what the Bible says…
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It’s always amusing to get new perspectives on Bible literature which you haven’t read in ages. It’s like you know the stories are crap now, but when you go to ACTUALLY READ them again? you exceed your own expectations on how crazy they all were.
If it were real, the Balaam’s donkey story would’ve gone like this:
Donkey: Why did you hit me?
Balaam: Aaaaargh! *Shits pants and runs away*.
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I suspect a lot of those stories were passed down for hundreds of years, since writing had yet to be invented, and even then reading was for the wealthy and the scholarly. It was an oral tradition. And like all oral traditions, as it passed from generation to generation the story tellers, to hold their audiences, embellished.
Have you ever noticed how hard it is to portray in film or onstage much of this stuff? It requires special effects, strange lighting, and bad acting. And how easy it is to illustrate biblical stories as cartoons….? They do wear thin after five minutes, (I keep thinking of “Davey andGoliath” which was dreadful) but they are much easier to put together. Sorta like Peter Pan or Mary Poppins.
And truly, almost any older fairy tale in it’s original form can be dissected like an apple to find the bits inside that fit biblical stories.
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Yes much of it was oral tradition, which might help explain why many of the biblical texts were written centuries after the events allegedly happened. Who knows how much twisting of stories has happened since then?
Lol when you mentioned film I was reminded of the Left Behind movie adaptations (The Kirk Cameron ones). That gives you an idea of what Bible translated to film looks like.
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Lol! It would be funny to re-write biblical stories so they made some sense, although ultimately without a consistent plot they will always suck.
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Many of the stories don’t have much to go on either, so they would serve as good sleeping aids if made into movies.
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Here goes.
Jephthah was a mighty warrior. They drove him out because he was the son of Gilead and a prostitute. But, when they needed a leader, the wanted him back.
The oath he made…well, he wanted to honor God with a sacrifice if he won the battle. He probably figured one of his servants would come out first. I believe the making of vows is supposed to be a very sobering thing. It was dumb. But he honored the vow.
The going to Egypt from Bethlehem isn’t that hard for me. Luke interviewed eyewitnesses and put together an account.
Joseph and Mary did return to Nazareth. No problem there.
But Matthew tells of the genealogy, and then of these wise guys from the east, (probably Babylon, probably descendants of the wise man school when Daniel was there) who had seen this new star, studied there records and writings and followed it to Jerusalem.
They came to the king, and he was careful not to act too upset, and sent them on their way with instructions to come back and share all this good news with him. (Sly dog)
So they found out about Bethlehem, went to the house where the child was staying with his mother.
Jesus could have been up to two years old.
I understand why the dream thing is hard for you to believe, because you say God is not real. Angels in the sky saying “Glory to God in the highest” is probably difficult, too. Right?
But, the time frame, the messages to avoid Herod and go to Egypt, and then going to Nazareth after he died is all easy enough for me to believe.
Now, the talking donkey, that was a little bit tough, but one of my friends told me today, ” Hey, Terry Fator, Edgar Bergen, Paul Winchell, Darcy Lynn could all make dummies seem to say the funniest things.
So, if God is real, and he can speak to men in dreams, and he can place an angel in the way that a donkey can see but a man can’t, isn’t it reasonable that he could make words come from a donkey.
He spoke from a bush that seemed to be burning.
I’m just saying, creator of the universe, and he has a sense of humor as well.
Once he made an iron ax head float.
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There is a desert plant that will burst into flame on very hot days. How easy to suddenly conjure up a miracle from that. There is a great deal of sleight of magic in the bible, from water walking, the loaves and fishes (oh group hypnosis, where is thy sting), to water into wine. Any stage magician can do that one. And ask any Indian fakir about his rope climbing trick.
As kids we were warned about not watching magic shows or magicians. so of course we did. And in later life I saw the connect between stage magic and “jesus miracles”–aha, she thought. aha. Priests knew about this stuff, and they were truly afraid that they would lose their audience if we figured out the tricks.
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Except, a man born blind, a woman with an issue of blood for 18 years, a man lame for years, an insane man suddenly becoming sane.
If you don’t believe there is a God, then you can’t accept the premise tgat he took on flesh.
But the miracles speak volumes.
Unless you think these guys were plants to trick a gullible crowd.
Although, the people knew them before the “miracle”.
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Lol! Yes, Randy. They are all tricks. Every single one of them. This is highly researched.
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Highly researched? People that were there?
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And more. Use of wireless hearing aids to pass information, cold reading, actual doctors examinations, the whole shebang. I recommend watching some stuff on youtube with James Randi. I’m not a magician, but he is, and he has debunked every challenge of miracles and supernatural phenomenon that has come his way.
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I think, too, you cannot cherry pick good magic from bad magic to find the ones you like, or prove your points.
Ouija boards, table turning, palm reading, stage magicians and folks who are skilled at mass hypnosis. Humanity has been doing stuff like this for thousands of years, and they still pull in the suckers. People who have been discovered bearing the ‘stigmata’ of Christ have also been discovered helping it along with a nail file. (shudder)
There was a time when people who ‘heard god’ or saw visions were clapped in mental instutions. Now they”re pastors.
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So, I guess I’m slow. You are talking about human “miracle” claims of today, right? Though, I guess, Jesus being God, He could have made a wireless hearing aid. But who would have been feeding Him the information?
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The person that wrote the story, Randy. Its a story. They could make him fly. Oh, wait!
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Randy, I think we lost you. SA was discussing debunking modern tricksters, and the ways the Great Randi discovered that mediums, mind readers, and such, were tricking audiences. This has nothing to do with God coming down and whispering in the magician’s ear, this has to do with ‘confederates’ who were either in cahoots with the magician or part of the ‘act’.
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I know. I wasn’t lost. But I thought we were talking about the fact that researchers had proven that the miracles in the Bible were fake.
Did you think Jesus had confederates and fakes working with him in his “deceptions”?
(Notice the quotes. They were not deceptions.)
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No, Randy. I already explained this. Jesus is a fake person. Jesus is a story. Even if there was some dude that generally kicked off the movement, we absolutely know for a fact that many of the stories about him are completely made up, sometimes as late as the 5th century. Some of his miracles are nullified by actual history. And all of his miracles are copy-cat miracles from previous religions, and shared in common with other savior god deities of the same time period.
Your ignorance of how the bible was assembled doesn’t prove a miracle occured.
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Your inability to see proves the words to be true.
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No Randy, you don’t just get to make stuff up, and pretend your old contradictory book somehow is better than anything else. That Jesus’ “miracles” copy earlier religious stories alone is enough to cast serious doubt on their veracity.
I know you aren’t used to logical thinking, but lets pretend that you heard stories of a man that was from the South pole, and one night every year he got in a sleigh pulled by magic penguins and delivered toys to every boy and girl around the world. It’s a clear Santa rip off. And Jesus is a pretty clear rip off of earlier religions. And then we add in the physical evidence which corroborates the “rip off” hypothesis, and the historical record that is dead silent on the issue when it should be screaming, and you have a common, made up miracle. And again, your ignorance of facts doesn’t make you right.
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And your inability to see the invisible doesn’t prove the invisible isn’t there.
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Randy, you are correct. However, if I believed in everything people told me was invisible, undetectable, and unknowable, I would be known as GULLIBLE. Therefore, I demand better evidence.
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There have always been stories in human culture, Randy. Told around fires late at night, by the story tellers of the group, about why the sun rises and sets, how the moon disappears and appears, what causes rain, what makes the volcano erupt. Every culture had them. It was a way of telling themselves that the Gods were busy, making thunder, rain, eclipses and stars.
Even today, kids in camp tell stories to each other around that same kind of fire, before bedtime, in an effort to scare the bejabbers out of each other. Old men stretch the truth like a rubber band and the snow in their stories gets higher with every telling, the road longer, the fish harder to reel in. We know it’s probably not true, but some of it is.
Important thing to consider; every culture in the world has stories. Tales of miracles, of gods, giants, ghosts and devils; from Ireland to Jerusalem, from Africa to Norway, from the Ephesians to the Romans to the Greeks and beyond. And most people in those cultures believed the stories, and made the gods real. Christianity borrowed everything from everywhere, from heroes to gods to holidays, and shifted them slightly to make a long long tale about Jesus and such like. Some of them can be found in Greek and Roman mythology. All were converted to become Christian/Roman stories, to please the Roman leaders, and to gain favor. Every good story needs a hero. In that culture, a dead hero was far more interesting, because you could make up the whole thing. He wouldn’t be around to argue.
And people still believe. All you good Christian believers, on your knees, head bowed, praying fiercely to your Jewish savior, Jesus was a Jew. He was killed by a Roman edict. His parents were Jewish, as was his God. And yet people who will have nothing to do with Jews worship this Jewish man and his Jewish deity. Think about that. Jesus did not ‘convert’, he did not have a revelation in those missing years and come back Catholic. He died as a Jew and his followers turned him into a Catholic. The protestants, by the way, came much much later. (wicked grin).
And do not tell me I need to read the bible. I’ve read it , cover to cover. It’s boring. It’s right up there, as far as I’m concerned, with Don Quixote.
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Those that have not seen, but still believe find joy.
Evidence is fine when you look at natural things.
But the things inside, the roots of anger, bitterness, despair, sorrow, hatred, these things have to be changed in an unnatural way.
By a supernatural means.
Would you tell me and the multitude of others who have found this source of joy that we are deceived, when our lives have been totally transformed?
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Wrong again, Randy. Just as your ignorance of history doesnt make you correct, your ignorance of biology also does not make you correct.
Emotions are a chemical process in your brain. Period. We can literally make you sad or happy or angry by using drugs or electricity to manipulate your brain.
You can also become particularly likely to react to certain things in a certain way through conditioning, in which you associate something with a particular stimulus. Churches are nothing but a conditioning lab, designed to regularly and frequently help parishioners associate good feelings of love and community with a particular religious imagery or spoken word. Years of regular conditioning lends people to feel happy, euphoric, and at peace merely by the mention of a particular name.
All the religions do it. All the religions equally have zero evidence supporting their claims. But you feel that despite the fact that we know that churches literally condition us to decieve us just like every other religion, and your religion is completely without any evidentiary support, that we should pick your religion and follow it?
Of course you’re being deceived. Grow up.
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And you would tell me that this biological phenomenon evolved? By chance?
And, why do you have such a problem with those who are able to handle life’s trials with a sense of comfort, and sense of joy?
I understand your desire for tangible proof.
I cannot give you tangible proof of a God that is evidenced all around you, in the order of the universe, in the complexity of the living body.
Nor can I make you understand what it means to realize the love of the one that made me.
I have enjoyed this conversation.
I hope I am not too much of an annoyance.
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Sometimes you’re an annoyance, but not because of anything personal. Its annoying when you continually repeat the same bad excuses after we thoroughly disected them and rendered them useless. “Evidence for god all around you” clearly demonstrates that you still don’t understand the most basic concepts of evidence. Please read my article “A word on evidence.” It might help clear things up.
But you quite inaccurately assess my intent. We dont tell 8 year olds that there is no Santa because we want to demolish them emotionally, we tell them because they need to understand reality to function as they grow up. I’m not explaining reality to you to shatter your worldview and upset you, I’m telling you because reality is required in our lives. Hinging your opinions on a worldview tainted by crazy myths and legends will steer you to a poor conclusion almost every time.
I’m sorry if you are upset that there might not be a magic man in the sky watching over you and protecting you and helping you. But there isn’t. You have to grow up and mature to protect and help yourself.
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I think it’s too late for me, my friend. I fear my brain has been washed.
But, it is nice to be clean.
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I mean, if youre cool being clean of critical thinking skills, just roll with it. You do you.
But you aren’t, you’re on my blog saying ridiculously simpleton things and expecting us to somehow find this inspiring. Ive already made up my mind that I’m going to try to believe in as many true things, and not believe in things that are made up. Jesus and bible god are demonstrably made up. Demonstrably. Unequivocally. I know that you are fine with that, but because I don’t want to believe in made up things, I’m not. That really is the bottom line here. I care about reality over comfort, you care about comfort over reality.
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“Demonstrably false” is the problem I have.
I followed a simple plan.
Faith first, then evidence.
It worked for me.
It worked for disciples of Jesus (who was not made up).
It worked for countless others before me.
Not by my efforts to get close to God.
Faith first.
That is the only way I have ever seen it work.
It is simple.
Too simple?
Maybe.
But it isn’t easy, is it?
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You literally just proved my point. “Faith first” means what is comfortable. “Then evidence” means you value what is true second to faith. This is exactly why you dont care about the evidence, or if it is good evidence, or if something is even evidence. If it makes you feel good, you go with it.
And again, you do you. But if youre on my blog pretending like you have some amazing thing to impart, just know that your “comfort zone” of belief doesn’t mean reality, and I value reality over comfort zone.
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I get it. You make the rules.
I didn’t make the faith rule.
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No, you totally missed the point. There are no “rules”. There is a way that works to determine reality, and a way that doesn’t work but makes some people feel comfortable. You do whichever one you like.
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“Doesn’t work” is subjective, right?
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Nope. Highly objective. Every single advancement in science or tech or health or the betterment of humanity in history came about despite religion. The score is religion, zero; not religion and science, uncountable. But I can let you try to find one example where religion did. Go for it.
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Just so I’m clear. A Christian scientist whose belief in God led him to a scientific discovery. Is that it?
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Randy, I don’t care if a scientist is driven to a discovery by religious ferver, greed, wonder, or spousal hagging. The actual discovery was by science, not the other.
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I have never denied the benefits of scientific discovery. “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter. To search out a matter is the glory of kings (or men). “
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So your god thinks it’s funny to let millions of people to die horrific, painful deaths, and still more to die in sacrifice and warfare due to their ignorance, until someone finally risks death themselves for heresey, to discover the truth?
Your god is a fucking dickhead. Fuck him.
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You are starting to repeat yourself.
Faith is not believing in God, it is Believing God.
Until our next conversation.
Jesus loves you, this I know.
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**Jesus loves me this I know, because a book written to control the masses a long time ago by Greek writers that compiled multiple god stories and made a conglomeration character named Jesus…. *sucks in* ….tells me so!
Youre hilariously gullible, Randy.
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Glad I made you laugh. The comment before sounded a little angry.😀
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Actually, I was going for sad. Sad that you believe a propaganda nursery rhyme over science.
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Oh. I thought hilarious meant making one laugh.
I’ll have to try harder to find your sense of humor.
You realize that if the universe was created with a design, then science is his creation as well?
Just think about the difficulty of life coming into being without all the parts.
Even one celjed organisms have an amazing complexity.
You know this.
Don’t hate me because I don’t think it could happen by itself.
You talk about proof.
Create life by science.
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Randy, yes, we all know you are ignorant of a lot of stuff. You dont have to keep proving it.
And here is a hint, asking questions and then just answering with a storybook character doesn’t actually solve the problem. It actually creates more unsolved questions.
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We live in different worlds. I used to live in yours.
You have never lived in mine.
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Oh, yes I have. I was a very serious believer in Jesus Christ as my savior. This changed as I began to realize that EVERY religion claims to be true, has no evidence to support it, and claims you have to take it on faith. Not only religions, but mysticism and magic and all other purported paranormal activities. And in every case, the testable claims have failed, and often been clearly demonstrated as false.
Christianity was no different. When I realized I could myself be tricked, I decided to become more critical and sceptical of claims. Thinking is the death of faith.
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And as far as Randy is concerned: never tell a non-believer they have never been where you are, as to religion. Some of them are former priests, nuns, ministers, life-long advocates of this belief or that, I was born and raised Catholic, damn I came with inches of becoming a nun, I had a cousin who was railroaded into the Jesuits, a great aunt who was a Benedictine nun. And by the time I was 30 I was drifting away from all of it.
Im a non-believer now, but not without reason. Choose your fights carefully, Randy.
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Do you mind me asking what age you were when you made this decision?
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It was a 10 year process. Mid 20s to mid 30s. Religious belief is an entire complicated web of lies, poor logic, and ingrouping. You have to deconstruct it over time.
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I understand. My nephew Phinehas turned from God and religion at 26. I turned toward him at 26. Seems to be something important about that age.
Do you remember a sense of what you were feeling in that period of time?
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Yeah, I realized that Christianity was just as made up as every single other religion, mystic, and supernatural claim.
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So, you and my nephew have much in common.
He is kinda angry, too.
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Phinehas told me once that he had even been born again, before he realized that everything was a lie.
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You have a smart nephew. Your nephew has a gullible uncle.
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Yeah. He unfriended me because I had an honest friend that didn’t hold back.
We had some good conversations, though.
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He unfriended me before I could ask him how he could be born again (by God’s spirit) if God wasn’t even real.
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Same way you are right now, Randy. Santa Claus isnt real, I hope we can agree to that. Yet as a kid, I could FEEL when he had been there. I could SENSE he had JUST hastily departed.
Believing in Santa or believing in Jesus does the same thing to your psyche. But despite “the feels”, neither are real.
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Well, maybe Santa Claus is a pretend feel good to distract us from the genuine feel good.
Because 4000 religions are wrong doesn’t mean that one isn’t right.
But, I don’t like talking about religions.
I prefer to address the God issue.
Maybe all the Hindu gods are made up.
Maybe wood nymphs, faeries (educated spelling. Like it?), trolls, Greek gods, Roman gods, all were made up because there was a built in sense that there must be a God.
Because thousands of gods are made up doesn’t prove that there is not one true God.
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Correct. There could be a God.
If we use faith to determine which of the gods, if any, are real, we end up right back where we started. Thousands of gods, conflicting gods.
Gee, I WISH there was a way to figure out what IS real. Like, maybe a process or something. Something to eliminate human error and bias….
Anything come to mind, Randy?
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You must be born again. 😜
Sorry, Spar, I couldn’t help myself.
At least, while we have our conversation you have someone to feel superior to.
Glad I could at least help you there.
Until your next blog….
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I cannot give you tangible proof of a God that is evidenced all around you, in the order of the universe, in the complexity of the living body.
BINGO! And therein lies the difference between believers and non-believers. YOU are convinced “God” is “evidenced all around” and in the “complexity of the living body.” However, many of us are not. And it will take much more than your words for us to be persuaded these statements are true.
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Randy, if you feel that way, more power to you. You’re in the right place: for you but that’s like insisting that I would LOVE brussels sprouts if only I’d eat a bowl full every day, when I know I’ve tasted them and decided they dont’ work for me. My choice.
Just don’t be surprised if you invade an atheist site and start telling us we’re wrong, when we don’t think we are. And not everyone is happy in their religion, but that’s like being in any bad relationship” it hurts to stay, but it hurts to go, too. You feel like you’re letting the other side down, and it turns out the other side has let YOU down.
You believe your way, that’s cool. Not everyone does. That, too, is cool.
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@Randy: “And your inability to see the invisible doesn’t prove the invisible isn’t there”
I know you didn’t mean this to be funny, but it made me giggle. I have yet to see an invislbe being, even when I was a fervent Catholic, up to my armpits in religion. Never. Not once. If I had it would have sent me screaming from the room. And frankly? Being watched by invisible beings is pretty creepy. Stalkers with wings oh, yeah.
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and one of these days I will learn to proofread anything that comes out of a keyboard. mea culpa. SA, if the typos make you crazy, feel free to fix ’em. If not, it’s okay too.
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I’ve typed worse. Lol!
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Surely, if you wished to communicate with your boss and used The Force when addressing your toaster the answer would simply pop-up,?
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Lol! Lets start this new religion.
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I always enjoyed the way Jesus feeds 5000 with bread and fish then a short while later he is confronted with 4000 more Hungry Dickheads who forgot to bring a packed lunch and the Disciples are somewhat perplexed as to how this situation was to be resolved. ”Hands up those who want Nandos?”
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The face of your boss on slices of toast?
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Lol!
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